Podcast: Lizzie Chan & Graham Rhodes

I received great feedback for a podcast I recorded with my wife Lizzie in 2022 as I was setting up this company.

To mark Longriver’s third anniversary, she kindly agreed to interview me again. We cover what I've learned as an entrepreneur, my investment process, what makes Longriver different and how exciting it is when fellow investors and business analysts reach out.

You can read the transcript below or listen to our conversation on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts.

The following transcript has been lightly edited for clarity:

Lizzie Chan: Welcome to today's episode of the Long River Podcast. You're hearing a different voice today—this is Lizzie Chan, Graham's wife. Some of you may have heard our first episode that we recorded a while ago about Graham's business, and now we’re doing an update to hear the latest from the man himself.

So, Graham, it’s very nice to talk to you again. Can you update us on how things are going?

Graham Rhodes: Hey Lizzie. It’s so nice to have you back on the podcast. The last episode we recorded all the way back in 2022 was very popular—you were a great hostess, and it’s nice to have you back. So thank you for doing this with me.

You asked for an update on Long River. It’s now been more than two years since I launched the Long River Partners Fund in January 2023, and we’re in our third year of investing on behalf of our clients.

It’s been a pretty interesting couple of years. We went from the tail end of a deep bear market in America to an AI boom, and now we’re back into what looks like it might be another bear market as we negotiate tariffs, the second Trump administration, and everything that portends.

Over here in Hong Kong, it’s also been very interesting. 2023 marked the end of the COVID years—and really, the end of our isolation from the rest of the world. One of the most exciting things for me was reconnecting with clients, businesses, and friends from all around the world.

That’s particularly important because Long River set out to be a global investor, taking what I’d learned from Asia and applying it to the rest of the world. So it’s been crucial to stay connected, to keep learning, and to find new ideas.

I want to drill a little further into your experience as a business owner. What have you learned about running a company?

One of the reasons I wanted to start my own business was to become an entrepreneur. I was beginning to feel a bit stale managing a portfolio from my desk, and I wanted the challenge of building something. I’ve since had a pretty thorough education in what that means—and it’s pretty demanding, actually!

The model I chose for Long River was to build an investment practice on my own. I’m the Chief Investment Officer; I’m a one-man team—and we can get into the reasons why I think that’s a very powerful model, which hopefully lends itself to long-term success, in a bit.

You asked about the business. What that means, day to day, is that I have to do everything. If I don’t do it, it doesn’t get done.

So I’ve had to learn all about Hong Kong tax. I’ve had to learn about human resources and filing the right forms at the right time. I’ve had to learn all about compliance and keeping my regulator happy.

And I think probably the biggest shift for me has been learning about sales. I think I’ve always been pretty good at building community and relationships, but now—here I am, really representing myself. At first, I might’ve been a bit timid about making the case for why someone should invest with Long River. But now, I have to do it.

It’s just part of the bread and butter of running a business and being an entrepreneur. If you’re not going to promote yourself, no one is.

Well, I’ve put my money where my mouth is—and I, too, have invested with my husband. And speaking of that—we have two wonderful boys. How do you balance the time you invest in your company with our family life?

So I mentioned to you that Long River’s model is built around a one-man investment practice. There’s someone very successful in Europe who does this, and I wanted to emulate what he does—but from Hong Kong.

When you think about designing a business, everything has to flow from your core intention. For me, that’s finding businesses that can reinvest capital at a high rate of return—higher than the market—because I believe that, over time, their share prices will reflect that and perform better than the market.

Because my most precious resource is time, I need to have larger positions in the portfolio. That way, I get a good return on the time I’ve invested in my research. Naturally, that lends itself to a more concentrated portfolio of, I hope, higher-quality ideas.

I also have to remember that we’re in this for the long term. Over the past couple of weeks, with Liberation Day and the market volatility, work has probably taken more of my attention than I’d like. But really, by design, once I make an investment decision, I should be able to step back and let the companies do the work. That frees me up to spend more time with family, the kids, and everything else.

You mentioned that the most precious resource you have is time, especially given that you’re a one-person company. How have you been using AI or other forms of technology to help you work more efficiently or deliver a higher-quality product?

I think AI is really important. Let’s separate that from the business case—whether the hundreds of billions of dollars invested over the past few years will generate a good commercial return. Let’s put that aside and just talk about the tools we have at our fingertips now to help with productivity and creativity.

And I think they’re amazing. I really try to use them as much as possible. I’m making a deliberate effort to immerse myself in AI so that I’m not left behind in an AI-driven world.

You were talking about the kids earlier—and one of the most wonderful things about having young people in your life is getting to see the world through their eyes. They really bring you into the life of a young person. I think they’ll grow up in an AI-first world, and you and I stand to learn a lot from them as they do.

In terms of work, I’ve been using AI a lot to help with my research. It’s a wonderful tool for going through documents efficiently. Sometimes it even acts as a sparring partner, helping me think through questions and concerns.

For example, if I’m researching a company—or a part of a company—in a country with a different language, I can ask AI to go through local-language media and publications. That helps me find insights I never would’ve found otherwise.

So it’s definitely enhanced my productivity.

One of the things I wanted to drill down into was learning more about the service you provide for clients. How would you describe your ideal client profile?

What I’m hoping to do for my clients is to free them up to focus on the things that matter most to them. They might prefer to spend more time with their family, on their philanthropy, or on their day-to-day business. What I can do is manage a portion of their savings on their behalf.

The business really started with the backing of the family office where I was working previously. The principal there has been a long-time friend and a truly wonderful mentor. When I launched Long River, the onus was on me to spread the word—let people know what I was doing and convince them to come on board.

I’ve been really grateful for the new clients I’ve added over the last couple of years.

One of the decisions I made early on was to share my work publicly. That means people can read my analysis, see how I build my portfolios, and frankly, hear my candid thoughts as I navigate changes in the business and the wider world. It gives people a much better sense of who I am—and who they’re trusting with their money.

And the most wonderful thing about that has been the feedback. I love it when people come to me with new ideas. I especially love it when they point out flaws in my current thinking.

But more than anything, I’ve been able to find alignment with the kind of people I want to build this business for.

So, you asked what my ideal client is? Really, I’m trying to build something that can last a very long time. I want to find companies that can compound wealth over many years—and I want, and need, clients who are willing to come on that journey with me.

I know you’ve been on a journey yourself—traveling to different countries, participating in events, and even speaking at some of them. Can you tell us a bit more about the events you’ve spoken at?

I was very fortunate to be invited to speak on a panel at a prominent European investment gathering in January. The topic was China, and it was a wonderful opportunity to hear from the other panelists, from the host himself, and later on from members of the audience—who had a wide range of perspectives.

Events like that help raise my profile and give people a better sense of how I think. And the wonderful thing about the internet and the world we live in now is that like-minded people can find each other. You can connect with people you might not otherwise have met.

What I appreciated most about that event were the conversations I had in the weeks that followed—with people who reached out to continue the discussion and learn more. That ongoing dialogue is one of the most fulfilling parts of this work.

And I hear congratulations are in order—you’ve been selected as a speaker for the Karen Leung Foundation’s Zone Conference this year. What idea will you be pitching?

Yeah, that’s really exciting. My huge thanks to Katharina Reimer, the organizer, and her colleague Patrick from East Rock for giving me the honor of presenting.

For those who don’t know, the Karen Leung Foundation is a charity here in Hong Kong, founded in memory of a young woman who passed away from uterine cancer. The charity’s mission is to promote greater awareness of women’s health through various outreach and treatment programs.

That’s something very close to home for us, as it was an issue we grappled with when we were preparing to have our first child. So I’m really delighted to be able to speak and to help them raise money at this investment conference, the proceeds of which go toward supporting the charity.

As for the idea itself—it’s a company called Wise, a fintech that offers a low-cost way to transfer money around the world, almost instantly. So that’s a little teaser, and I’ll share even more in May when I make the presentation.

Now I want to pivot to your investment lessons and learnings. I was wondering if you could reflect on the year 2023—when you said it marked the real end of COVID. How do you think that year went? And then we can talk about the years that followed.

Yeah, the fund has now been running for two years. I was disappointed with my performance in the first year, and I think that happened for a couple of reasons.

The first is that I was so busy setting up the fund in 2022 that, when I launched, the portfolio was a bit stale, to be honest. I had ideas in there from years prior, and I hadn’t really had the time or space to refresh them.

Running a public equities fund is interesting. If I could contrast it with private equity: in private equity, you get commitments from clients to invest with you, but you only draw down that capital when you have an investment opportunity. In public markets, by contrast, your clients write you a check, and the clock starts ticking the minute the funds transfer. From that point, you're compared to your benchmark—no excuses.

The onus is on you to be fully invested almost from day one, if that’s the route you choose.

What I’m saying is—it’s probably taken me about a year and a half to really identify the investment style that works for me, to refine my investment process into something repeatable, and to find the kinds of ideas that best reflect that approach.

So while the first year was weaker than I’d hoped, I learned a lot. And I think that’s reflected in the way the portfolio looks today—and, hopefully, in the performance it will deliver in the years to come.

Can you tell me more about what you mean by investment process?

Yeah—so you’re trying to design something that’s repeatable and can hopefully deliver better-than-market returns with less-than-market risk.

There are many different ways to skin the cat, but for me, what I like to do is find businesses with a demonstrated history of profitability, led by management teams that are aligned with me—either through significant share ownership, a clear sense of mission, or appropriate remuneration.

I also look for predictable cash flows. This typically lends itself to companies that are almost monopolistic in nature or have a business model that provides an enduring competitive advantage.

Then I look at capital allocation. By that I mean: once a business earns profits, what does it do with them? The most common approach is to reinvest those profits into growth. So I want to see that management is investing profitably into opportunities with strong market potential—where future returns are likely to be healthy.

As simple as that sounds, it’s surprisingly rare to find all of these traits in one place.

Finally, because the world is uncertain and often unpredictable, I like to buy companies at a margin of safety. That means paying what I think is a cheap price relative to the company’s intrinsic value.

That’s my process. And as I mentioned earlier, working alone means I’ve had to figure out how to execute that on a daily basis. I’ve had to create my own structure—deciding how to prioritize my time and research, what risks I’m comfortable with, the extent of my knowledge and, just as importantly, the extent of my ignorance.

Then I wait for the market to present opportunities I like—at attractive prices. That’s the process in a nutshell.

I like that you’ve given us a summary of what you look for: a history of profitability, a management team aligned with your values, predictable cash flows, and so on.

But you’ve also said it’s important to identify risks you’re not comfortable with. What are some of the things you say no to?

Sure—going back to what I said about business models, I work as a generalist with a very broad universe. I have a global mandate to invest in anything, anywhere. But since I’m just one person, I have to be very disciplined about saying no. And I say no a lot.

Really, I only follow a few companies, a few sectors, in a few places—because I believe those are the areas where I can understand the business model, reasonably predict the future, and trust the management team to execute on my behalf.

Some specific examples of what I say no to: I avoid countries where I don’t have a good understanding of the culture, governance, or political landscape. I stay away from industries where I lack confidence in predicting cash flows—like mining, oil and gas (to some extent), banking, and insurance. And I say no to businesses where the people in control don’t have a good track record of treating minority shareholders fairly. That might mean they’ve abused their controlling interest, made poor M&A decisions, or allocated capital in a way that isn’t friendly to investors like me.

I’ve heard—from an entirely unreliable source—that your wife may or may not have been making some investments. Do you ever have to say no to her?

Okay, yes—Lizzie, you made your first investment in crypto a couple of weeks ago. And, for better or worse, I actually wrote into the fund documents of the Long River Partners Fund that we will never own digital assets.

So… sorry. You’re on your own with that one!

So you’ve told us a lot about the things you look for—and the things you say no to.

Can you tell me a bit more about the continuous process of ideation and what that looks like? Because I understand it’s not just something you do once, but actually something you do on a regular basis, with a consistent rhythm.

One more thing I’d like to add—something I’ve really learned over the last two years—is that working more doesn’t necessarily mean working better.

What I’m really providing to my clients is my judgment. And in order to make good judgments, I’ve learned that I need to be rested, grounded, calm—things like that.

Spending more hours at my desk every day, reading another annual report or joining one more expert call, or flying off to yet another meeting doesn’t always improve my judgment.

So, as contrarian as it might sound, sometimes doing less is actually doing more.

And maybe I still feel a bit nervous saying this to my wife—or to other people—but honestly, sometimes the best thing I can do is just leave the office and go for a walk.

I think it’s really important to know your limits and respect those boundaries. You asked earlier about the kids, and how I work around them.

When the market was volatile, and I admit I was feeling a bit of pressure, the thing that most helped me through it was just being able to go home, pick up our eldest son Austen from school, and take him for a walk.

It was really nice—just seeing the world again through the innocence of his eyes. That was very grounding for me. And I think that kind of clarity is really helpful for the investment process.

Aww, that’s so sweet.

On the idea of ideation being a continuous process—it's a bit like a kaleidoscope. Every time you twist the barrel, something new comes up: new patterns, new colors.

Every day when I wake up, something’s a little different in the market—maybe prices have changed, or there’s a new opportunity on the horizon.

So I keep looking. But I also have to remind myself that nothing should be better than the companies we already own—or at least, they shouldn’t be.

One funny thing I do—maybe it’s a bit quirky—is keep one share of Berkshire Hathaway in the portfolio. Berkshire, as you know, is this huge conglomerate managed by Warren Buffett, one of the greatest investors of all time.

I keep that share there to remind me of my opportunity cost. If I’m being really honest, the best return on my time might just be to put everything into Berkshire Hathaway.

It’s diversified. I trust the management. It’s not expensive. And I’m confident it would be a safe, long-term investment for myself and my clients.

So anything new that enters the portfolio has to be better than Berkshire Hathaway. That’s the benchmark I carry with me as I go through this ongoing search for new ideas.

So tell me about the portfolio today—what excites you about it?

The thesis of Long River is to take what I’ve learned here in Asia and apply it to the rest of the world. There are some wonderful insights about what has worked well for minority shareholders, and the kinds of business models I believe are replicable globally.

I’m obviously very excited about all the companies in the portfolio. But one thing that’s worth touching on is that I may perceive risks differently from the typical investor.

As you know, Lizzie, you and I live here in Hong Kong. Our family is here—all of our families, in fact. We live and breathe in this space between China and the West.

Because of that, I feel very comfortable and confident about what’s happening in mainland China—probably a lot more than someone living in Western Europe or North America.

More than anything, I’m just impressed by the vision and competitiveness of Chinese businesses.

If I look at our benchmark, about 3% of it is allocated to Chinese shares. And just to put that in context: Japan has a higher weighting than mainland China. The United Kingdom has a higher weighting. Canada is only a few basis points behind.

And yet, China is the second-largest economy in the world, with enormous potential.

So one thing that really stands out about the portfolio today is just how much capital I’ve allocated to Chinese businesses.

I think China is emerging from a long period of difficult restructuring and deleveraging, following the government’s decision to pop the real estate bubble in 2021.

Many companies there have gone through significant changes—streamlining their operations, cutting back on poor investments, and improving corporate governance—in exactly the ways that a minority shareholder like me would hope for.

And yet, whether it’s because of geopolitical tensions or simply because people were burned a couple of years ago, I don’t think the valuations of those companies reflect the current reality.

So yes—we’ve put a significant amount of money to work in a few Chinese companies.

A term I’ve learned from talking to you is bearish. So I hear you’re not feeling bearish about China.

But another political force we’ve all been reckoning with lately is, of course, the Trump administration in the United States.

Can you share some of your thoughts on that?

I think Trump is a change agent. The system of government in America—with its checks and balances—is very difficult to change, and that was exactly the founders' intent.

It’s worked very well for America, and for the world, since the end of World War II.

But there’s an argument to be made that we’ve taken that system to its logical conclusion—and that it has now gone beyond what’s healthy for America. Specifically, I’m talking about trade deficits, the level of inequality within the U.S., and some of the other more contentious issues in American society.

I think Trump recognizes that, and I think he’s trying to re-engineer the global trading system to address those issues and make it more favorable for America.

We can debate the way he’s going about it—it’s certainly been radical and wrenching—but I do understand his motivations and what he’s trying to accomplish.

For us here in Asia, I think we’re navigating a new dynamic in the region. We’ve had a powerful presence from across the ocean—America—ever since the end of World War II. That presence has been extremely influential, providing stability and open markets that have allowed our economies and businesses to grow.

But now, we’re also managing the rise of China. We’re trying to negotiate how these two powers will coexist.

In an ideal world, they could be partners. But I’m just a naive businessman, and I’m sure there are much bigger, more complex issues at play—far above my pay grade.

One of the things we look forward to every year is the Long River Gathering—and I say this while holding my Long River Conference mug from several years ago!

So, what’s the plan for the Long River Gathering this year?

The Long River Gathering is something I first organized with friends, and then later on my own, starting back in 2017.

We had to pause it for a few years during COVID, but we brought it back in 2023, and we held another one last year in Shenzhen. We’ll be doing it again this year, also in Shenzhen, in September.

The idea is to create a conference by investors, for investors. We try to find a private space, spend time together over a weekend, let our guards down, exchange information, invite candid feedback, and make friends. The goal is really to identify our blind spots.

There’s space for maybe 20 to 25 people. And what makes it different is that everyone agrees to give a presentation. So the real price of entry is a willingness to share and reciprocate. No one’s up on a dais—there’s no hierarchy.

It’s a really wonderful event. The formal presentations are informative, and we get lots of good ideas pitched. But the real magic happens around the edges—in the dinners, the coffees, the walks.

So yes, it’s happening again in Shenzhen later this year. We’ve already reached capacity in terms of invitations, and I’m really looking forward to reconnecting with friends when we gather again.

Now, before we move to the lightning round of questions for our interviewee today— Is there anything else you want to tell us about?

I’d just say it’s been a real honor to build Long River.

I’m incredibly grateful for the support I’ve had from you, from my mentor, and from my friends. It’s been a learning journey—and I’m pretty happy with the way it’s going. I can’t wait to see what we continue to build in the future.

Now—lightning round!

What book are you reading?

Over the last few weeks, I’ve probably read more war biographies than I have in the past three years.

Because—what better way to take your mind off turbulence in the markets than by diving into Korea, Iraq, and Afghanistan, and reading about heroism on the battlefield?

So I’ve been doing a lot of that.

What’s the last song you listened to?

Electric Feel by MGMT—on my way to the gym this morning.

Are you going to have a third child?

Only if it’s a daughter.

What’s something we can’t Google about you?

My favorite hobby—because I think it’s only on Facebook.

What’s your favorite chatbot?

Ooh, good one. I’ve been using Grok a lot lately because we can access it here in Hong Kong without a VPN. It’s also pretty sassy—which I like. A bit like you.

I’m pleased to say that Grok is going to be the next interviewee on the Long River Podcast—but you’ll have to wait for that one.

Thank you again, Graham, for taking the time. It’s been an incredible three years, and I can really see how much you’ve evolved—both as a businessperson and as a father and husband.

We’re so incredibly grateful to you for everything you do for our family.

We wish you all the best in navigating the ever-changing geopolitical environment, and we hope you have a great time at the Zone Conference.

We’re also looking forward to seeing you at the Long River Gathering later this year.

Thank you, everybody, for tuning in—and we’ll see you next time.

Thanks, Lizzie. It’s been a blast.